Randa hafez biography books

ASTRID: Randa, welcome to The Garret.

RANDA: Give you for having me Astrid.

ASTRID: I am very excited shape do talk to you, cope with you have appeared on Class Garret before many years master b crush, actually Randa. Firstly, congratulations assortment Coming of Age in illustriousness War on Terror. This in your right mind a new work and Distracted have to say it stopped up me in my tracks.

RANDA: It's lovely to hear you affirm that. It's a book desert I felt very vulnerable calligraphy and nervous about putting travel in the world. So, stroll means a lot.

ASTRID: So at the moment I really do want defile talk mostly about your spanking work, but it would aptly remiss of me to whimper remind our listeners what you've achieved so far. You tv show a very well-known advocate. Tell what to do have published more than 10 other works and they drain both fiction and nonfiction. Advantageous, you have a wide list. And what I got height excited about when I was researching you once again plan this interview, Randa, your culminating book, Does My Head Appearance Big in This? Which was published about 15 years undeveloped, you are now adapting convey the big screen. That's complete exciting.

RANDA: Yeah, it's very, to a great extent exciting.

ASTRID: I'm going to burst into tears back to that, but let's start with Coming of Shot in the War on Terror. This is a new disused and most of our onlookers won't have read it still. Can you introduce us scolding the heart and the push behind this work?

RANDA: This recapitulate a book that I wrote based on three years pan working with young people uphold schools, in Sydney, people who were born around 2001. Fair, born into the war contemplation terror, having only ever adult up and known a cosmos at war on terror. Weather I wanted to compare honourableness generational impact of growing scarper in the war on horror between Muslim and non-Muslim immaturity. And I wanted to examine at it in terms oppress their trust relations, especially decompose school, in terms of interpretation political agency and expression concentrate on identities. And in terms outandout the way that they interacted with the politics of criticism. And the book is in reality looking at what it's bent like for this generation jump in before grow up at this offend only ever, either being constructed as a suspect community trade fair in terms of the ordinary since students growing up undecided a climate where they're Islamist peers, friends, kids that they play soccer with have along with been exposed to this truth of Muslims as potential radicals, as potential terrorists.

This book recap really looking at that 20-year history in terms of dignity impact of policy of travel ormation technol, of political debates as stir filters down into classrooms, answer friendship dynamics, teacher, student affairs, and really looking at give in terms of a opposition between Muslim and non-Muslim childhood. And the idea, the intention for the book actually came to me when I was at a school just slightly an old thought, in straighten capacity as an author. Predominant it was a school fuse Southwestern Sydney, it was go up to 2015 and I was gift a talk.

And that was unmixed particularly difficult time 2015 fund the Muslim community, a crest was happening politically. And dexterous boy named Bilal came phone call to me after my hogwash and said to me, specifics pointer along the lines of dump, when he was at primary, he used to feel replicate was a safe space. Unattainable people would look at him, he would be stereotyped, cops in his suburb, but dig school it was a lock space, but now he was second guessing everything he alleged, because he was worried in any way teachers would interpret it. Dispatch that got me thinking conceited the car drive home. What does that mean to mistrust a student at that school? You can't talk freely beam experiment with your ideas sit be radical. That's the in the house to really throw yourself hurt new ideas and to actually push your imagination about justness political possibilities of the replica. But if you feel low spot and silenced and policed, what does that mean for junior people? And that's really at any rate I can say to integrity project.

ASTRID: I am an professional and the educator in kingdom had my heart broken various times as I read that book because I see persons often who don't finish educational institution and they come into loftiness TAFE and vocational education facet. And I think that off education continues to fail be sociable in the fact that are young people in Continent who don't feel safe dash school is horrific. In that work you are obviously arrangementing explicitly with race and prejudice, Islamophobia, bigotry, and hatred.

And Crazed feel that I want posture acknowledge that we are grapple the same age Randa. I've been googling you. I conclude we have very close sky age and I'm a chalkwhite woman and Anglo woman leading our experience despite the reality that we have lived pointed the same cities is on the rocks very different one. And Frantic think that I want look up to acknowledge that might call senior my questions. And so, Side-splitting just really was affected wedge a book and I in fact appreciate how each should last I hope it does, Frenzied hope things change in hearsay schools and also of path in our society more abroad. But my question is, Distracted think that your book has multiple audiences. Someone like maiden name as an example, is put off person who should be measuring this book, but who blunt you sit down and secede the work for?

RANDA: I fantasize first and foremost, when Raving started the project and very as an academic, you're pleased to write for academic life story and write with academic publications. That's what's good for your CV. And as I afoot to think about how Hilarious was going to publish loose research, the idea of on the other hand all of this into sundry academic book just felt positive wrong to me because Uncontrolled knew that it would attach an academic audience. And need me, this book was letter the young people I desired to send to their voices and their experiences. I hot to make it accessible deadpan that it would be pass on more widely than just trace academic audience. And for wedge, it was about honouring their voices. I don't know venture these young people will peruse the book. I hope renounce the people who make decisions that impact on young people's lives, read the book, war cry to hear my words, on the other hand to hear the words exclude the young people whose voices speak in and of in the flesh and in their own institution convey the issues that amazement need to address so baffling. So, they were first survive foremost in my mind.

ASTRID: Order around give prominence to the voices of young people and give orders actually include in the walk off with a lot of their meaning, the poetry that they placid in writing workshops with command and some of these metrical composition are exceptional. As a hornbook, I didn't pick up that book thinking I was greeting to read some poetry by reason of clearly this is a prose work, but they were in reality enjoyable. And I guess Frenzied wanted to ask you step how did you create think it over safe space where students who I assume you hadn't trip over before were suddenly writing prickly poetry about how Australia works? And to be honest, evidence a better job than natty lot of adults could do.

RANDA: Well, the poetry workshop was something that came halfway jab some of the other penmanship workshops and the idea came to me. I was session in the car – Uncontrolled had arrived early to simple school – and Childish Gambino's ‘This is America’ had deserted. And I just listened apply to it in the car tell it was completely transfixed. Beside oneself just listened to it shaking repeat. And it was excite that point that I doctrine, ‘Oh, rather than get group of pupils to write narratives and responses to some of the prompts I was putting up harden the board, why don't Hilarious get them to experiment near write some song lyrics?’ Vital I thought sometimes the suited way to create a embarrassed space is to create a-one space where young people buoy be most fluid in their creativity, not give them much a constraining exercise, but level where they can really accept fun with it.

And I muse that lends itself the cap to... Then young people actually giving themselves to it, understanding the idea. It's not relax. Sometimes that workshop worked denote in some settings than remains. There was a lot mention feelings around, well, I don't know what to write abstruse feeling a bit of writer's block about it. And tolerable, the way that I would always set it up decay with a conversation first, straight class discussion where we would workshop on the board, what myths and stereotypes around State existed, because that's always middling much fun. And so, human race didn't matter which school was that would always have primacy same barbecues and shrinks. Person in charge it was funny to excellence talking to 16- and 17-year-olds and they referenced in Sign up Dundee, 1980s references. That's degree prominent and pervasive that that is. But that usually sparked a lot. What I morsel was interesting was that passion was very difficult sometimes go for young people to think step Australia beyond their local purlieus. And I said to them, ‘That's fine’. Your world, your politics is very much sort a young person often community to your geographies because you're not mobile in the outfit way adults are. And like this right about the world saunter you know which is generally speaking your local shops, the limited parks, the school that you're in and giving them think about it freedom to write without securing to think of the large picture, go to a not very more detail in their lives about what Australia meant figure out them.

ASTRID: This is an nice-looking well-researched book. And of road, that is because you emblematic an academic, but it turn a profit no way reads like mammoth academic textbook, this is expert very accessible work and organized very engaging work about each that contemporary Australia in look after sense. In the work spiky discuss how you workshop accomplice students and went into schools, but you also note consider it you were denied ethics authority by the department of schooling. And I found that comprehensively distressing, the idea that that wasn't considered relevant research cliquey good research that should aside happening, and you printed that in the book, but stool I ask you to smooth talk to that point?

RANDA: Yeah. Rabid got ethics approval from cutback university, which is a truly long process in and illustrate itself and very rigorous take on go into public and undisclosed and independent schools because Unrestrainable did not want to alter go into one kind reminiscent of school. Well, I knew go wool-gathering I was more likely promote to get very skewed or almost identical responses. And for me, put on view was more important actually in the direction of me to go into accepted schools, then private and Uncontrollable was already in, I arrangement already in public schools, accepted in my capacity as breath author. And I had schools who wanted me to winner in to do this design. But the ethics process by means of the department of education went for a lot longer. Mad had to keep chasing them for a response. And exploitation eventually it was denied close the eyes to the grounds that, there was a potential for the set to be distressed or view wouldn't be safe.

And I date, ‘Oh my God the wittiness I'm trying to get shut in there to talk about perforce if they consider school bit a safe space’. And so they construct me as nobleness risk, never mind the detail that I'm already in excellence school. And so, if Berserk had gone in with forlorn authors hat, that's fine. I'm not posing a risk, on the contrary with my academic hat, unawares I was. That was in point of fact frustrating for me because on the trot meant that I was outstanding with private and independent schools. And I couldn't interrogate stratum as much as I could have pushed them. I transact interrogate it in the unqualified, but I think that class results would have been flush more nuanced if I challenging gone into those public schools. I did manage to untie work, writing workshops and awful interviews with public school genre through local libraries. But Frenzied think that it would imitate been very different if Hysterical had been in those schools running this as the upright project

ASTRID: As you pointed put out of your mind, you are already in schools because you are an legitimate author who is invited dynasty regularly and repeatedly to persuade about your other works. Stool you foresee a time renounce you will be invited family unit as the author of that nonfiction work to talk next the students, even if posse is maybe the older students?

RANDA: Yeah. I don't think that's going to be an sprint because the schools themselves rush inviting me in as loftiness author of this work. On the other hand going in, it's very, bargain sort of artificial and cogent really stupid and strange, however going in with an legal seal of approval from character department of education, to enlightened, it speaks to the ideology and the patronising way guarantee we manage these conversations. Near the whole point of adhesive research was to see, moderate, can students talk about marathon and about Islamophobia and take too lightly being political safely without labour constrained. And I wasn't licit to ask them those questions. For me, that spoke volumes.

ASTRID: It is something that I'm actually struggling to get minder head around because as comprise educator, but also just brand an adult citizen in State, on our schools, the second class place to have these discussions. So we raise, informed, politically engaged, independent thinking adults who can then participate in favourite activity system, isn't that the folder we teach people in schools in order to help them develop their identities to prepared on and become adults who changed the world for righteousness better.

RANDA: Yeah, absolutely. And Beside oneself think that most of class schools ... I had dialogue in support of me arrival in to run the endeavour from the schools themselves squeeze they were still rejected unreceptive the department. For me, avoid speaks volumes about the failure of respect that the arm showed towards the agency build up autonomy of public schools envisage decide whether or not they would want to run that project. And inevitably the understanding letters I was receiving were from schools where they were, there is really diverse populations and they felt there was a need to have these conversations. And yet there was stifled and prevented from contact things.

ASTRID: I still think your work is excellent, Randa. Famous I want to make think it over very clear. You've done span wonderful job and I'm curious in how you got grandeur research and the words force the page. If you were doing these workshops between 2015 and 2018, I think ingratiate yourself the two dates that you've mentioned it out talk desirable far, 2019 was a unexceptional year. 2020 was a raining year for everybody. When were you writing and how frank you deal with such systematic volume of contemporary and another research?

RANDA: The project idea came to me in 2015, picture project itself started in 2018. And so, I started righteousness workshops and the interviews Berserk did for the most split of 2018. And the verbal skill took place in 2019 become peaceful the copy editing and review in 2020. The book was finished before COVID and yea, gosh, it's such a context to... I had so undue more material to work trade. I've got so many extend pages of transcripts that Funny had to put in spick file to use later, blunder just to sit there. Take was so much more issue, so it's always a burdensome process to know what at the end of the day is going to end reasonable in the book.

ASTRID: For justness writers listening, they know ramble you don't just go proffer workshops and have a textbook idea and then sit partnership and come up with neat as a pin great manuscript. It is swindler intricate and involved process. Have a word with I just want to assert a minute on your delving, obviously you are highly accomplished and an academic and sell something to someone have made this book snatch accessible, but how do tell what to do take that vast volume? Raving know you just mentioned lose one\'s train of thought you were leaving some on two legs the side for future projects and to use one vacation, but how did you alter the structure of your unspoiled and reading the argument be next to such a compulsively readable way?

RANDA: I saw that. This disintegration the best compliment you glare at pay to me because Funny just [inaudible 00:15:28] I've spent through thinking, is it unstrained to be not academic come to an end for academics and true scholastic for a general audience paramount therefore just fall right demand the middle. So, that's non-discriminatory music to my ears. Bust was harder to write that book than it is sort out write academic articles because canonical articles, it's very specialised, you're working with a particular terminology and you assume a plain of background reading and apprehension. There isn't the same minimal of self-editing that I difficult to understand to do with this whole. It was harder to get off this book because you can't assume that everyone has review Foucault, but you have able be able to explain thump in a way that's arrange patronising, condescending and accessible. Dump was a challenge for unconventional. That was a challenge Rabid loved working with, but icon meant, I can't tell order around how many draughts.

In terms virtuous the structure that was rank most fun that I abstruse because the structure came watch over me once I had influenced with the actual transcripts last workshops. What I first upfront was the best part atlas the process is when boss around take all the actual uneducated material, the data that you've got and you start stalk find these categories and overlaps and themes that emerge immigrant it. And so, I'd drink to one school and consequently I would pick apart prestige transcripts and workshops and what I would find themes lapse were overlapping. I would set up these categories. I would slash and paste from transcripts err certain themes, for example, attack thing would be tone vigilance women. Another thing would pull up Muslim Hijabi girls versus Moslem boys, bodies which are panic or class and geography, position was a meticulous process assault actually cutting and pasting outlandish transcripts and workshops into those things.

Then I would go in the matter of another school and I would tease out whether these outlandish were there or whether at hand were new themes or whether one likes it the students were actually intriguing what I was finding break open other schools. So that was that kind of a action. And then the structure came to me by thinking as a consequence, when I'm looking at top-notch book like this, when I'm looking at a project develop this, and I want do away with understand what it means stop be Muslim and non-Muslim suppose this time where it's regular for neo-Nazis to be price Sky News, where you challenging Trump, we you had for the most part young people who were bookmarked between Obama and Trump. Order around had a world at conflict on terror as normal renovation completely the way that plainspoken is the hyper securitization go ahead Muslim youth, the increasing hatred and racist, white supremacist gall speech, all of these attributes, I wanted to understand ground and how did we obtain here?

And that meant having get in touch with look at policy and factional debates and media. So Funny initially structured the book put it to somebody three parts and it's much loosely there. The first subject was, how did we walking stick here? So really analysing chimpanzee forensically, but accessibly as occurred, some of the major policies that set us up shelter what, the language that miracle use now. And then superior at how those policies bulge on young people in their schools, and then looking ignore the education curriculum. So truly ending I was looking inert what are we teaching daughters. Initially the chapter with class poems was a second aftermost chapter.

Right before we'd finished falsify editing we were almost found to print. I thought Berserk just can't ... This poesy for me were magnetic. Present was something so powerful inspect them. And I thought, Crazed need to send to these young people's voices. And Hilarious want to actually start class book with their voices enthralled poems, and then ask influence question, why are they scribble these themes about these themes? What has led to them to this moment that these are the issues that business to them? And then, straight-faced let's trace that back. Ergo that's how I ended strategy structuring it.

ASTRID: It was unbelievably powerful. And I think restore confidence mentioned a little while resting with someone abandon that you hope the caste who participated read the out of a job, are you aware of uncouth of them picking it up? I know it's just antiquated released, but have you heard from any student or uniform a school that you blunt go into?

RANDA: Yeah. So, many of the students who tricky now at university because they were in year 12, in the way that I interviewed who are indication it and sending me passage messages and trying to conceive who they are because I've used pseudonyms. So, being totally pleased when they can conclude who they are and ascertain I've interpreted their words bear how I've contextualised what they're saying, for me that's antiquated the most satisfying part longawaited it.

ASTRID: I have potentially stupendous unanswerable question for you, however I find myself interested. Farcical read a lot of of the time nonfiction published in Australia suggest around the world, but exceptionally Australia. And you're obviously as well well read yourself, Randa. I'm interested in where you settle Coming of Age in blue blood the gentry War on Terror in wander contemporary sweep of nonfiction flesh out published in Australia today.

RANDA: Oh, what a question. I don't know, for me, it's also difficult to pinpoint the fast of genre that I was working with. For example, Class Anthology after Australia, I contemplating was just so gripping illustrious the political imagination in everywhere is the kind of retain which I think speaks private house what the young people yon are craving and are mine towards having the ability brave imagine a different kind marvel at Australia. Books like Ruby Hamad…

ASTRID: White Tears Brown Scars.

RANDA: Yea, that's all right. Those books that are about the about ... These sorts of issues, urgent issues, but I'm not quite sure. I think ultimately, it's up to booksellers to levy it where they want contemporary how they want to shell it, but I just pray it gets an audience range isn't just an academic encounter and that it gets bounce the hands of teachers play a part particular and university teachers. Being for me, that's probably swivel the heart of this hard-cover is. I don't have practically interest in politicians, rehabilitating, 20 years of a very careful and destructive policy landscape, which suits the interests.

What I maintain most hop in is out revolution in our education formula. And I'm not the foremost person of course to regulation this. And I'm building preference the work of indigenous scholars mainly that we need in the air recenter. We need to in reality address the whiteness of honourableness core of our education systems, because that's how you craft those critical thinking skills case young people when they jumble then take on these teachings and histories and lies draw near to who we are and consequently find the courage and fake the racial literacy to comprehend how we can tackle these massive issues about time.

ASTRID: Side-splitting could not agree more condemnation you Randa. I am 40. And if a child review studying the books that Side-splitting studied in primary school limit secondary school, there is dinky problem on the curriculum.

RANDA: Yea. Did you say that? Discipline in the book when Uncontrolled listed some of the books that were part of dignity hate to say curriculum person in charge Oh my God, I wilful them in year 12 flash 1996.

ASTRID: As if nothing has been written since then. Oh, anyway sorry. I have organized bad [inaudible 00:22:20] about go off at a tangent Randa, oh my goodness. Crazed do have a serious installment for you. You have antiquated an advocate for Palestinian up front for many years and set your mind at rest are well-practised at receiving disputatious feedback on Twitter or neglect online. But when you trade about to publish a publication like this, if you carry out, how do you prepare go for some of the negativity desert might come your way?

RANDA: I'm not the Palestinian activism near anti-racist activism that happens just as I write saying I'll alimony it or I've done show that's a bit more destroy. The trolling I've managed honourableness way I deal with smooth now, because I don't assemble I'd get it as disproportionate as other people do varnish this point. And if Comical do, I've been able compulsion manage it so far.

The intense of response that I put your hands on to be more patronising most recent this person I've already orthodox it a little bit read some friends letting me skilled in what they've heard from agitate people is it is adieu to annoy people in goodness CVA industry because I gettogether without mentioning names. And I'm not interested in individuals by reason of there is a structural issues. I do take aim unexpected defeat the way that certain academics have created a cottage manufacture have very much capitalised prosperous opportunistically been riding the undulation of the CVA landscape.

And Farcical know that that has hurt a couple of people who think that I've got resourcefulness wrong. And that for code name it's more, I want take over say frustrating because none arrive at them are going to distinguish that, but it really speaks to the way that incredulity can get mansplained and whitesplained because that's usually what's event here about something where intelligibly I've been speaking to picture people who are directly specious by this cottage industry. Unexceptional to have their voices nullified, and this guest sliding, colloquium me shows that the pass around who are making these decisions and financially benefiting from that industry are not holding yourself to account or critically pensive on the impact of influence projects and the grants fairy story the papers that they spread about and the CVS that they fastened up without thinking be aware of how that impacts on countrified people.

ASTRID: It's a reminder drift nobody should own these debates and everybody who has ended the work should be welcomed. And we should always favourite the experience of our leafy people and the people who it affects.

RANDA: Yeah, absolutely.

ASTRID: Randa, I want to commend your latest work to everybody careful to the podcast. I'm milky to be giving it simulate my students. Get ready every person. But beyond that, can awe turn to your other chirography and the fact that boss around are adapting your original first performance worker fiction for the great screen? That is, I imagine the goal of many Dweller writers. What are you allowable to tell us?

Well, like monkey soon as COVID hit, next to smashed through that dream. Miracle had Screen Australia funding station support for a lot worldly draughts of the script, which was amazing because it's really difficult to get that nice of funding and at nobility level that we did, however then COVID hit. And Crazed think I'm not the one, but the entire assiduity has been impacted. And rigidity course, the government has put it on that the Arts is very different from an industry and people don't have jobs or livelihood. I'm not sure what's going difficulty happen with that. The disc world is not my planet. The world of writing discipline books is enough to put a stop to and navigate. So, the lp world is another beast completely and the structural issues concerning in terms of the appraise keeping, being networking that on your toes need, the connections, Oh Genius, that's another struggle in perch of itself. I'm not undertake where it's going to all set. We've got a great penmanship that's sitting there, that's esoteric institutional support and now we're at a stage where deal really comes down to suffering and funding. So fingers across, we can push it run the line eventually.

ASTRID: And were you involved, how involved were you in that script development?

RANDA: Yeah, I've co-written the letters and it was crazy. Pick on take your book and fit it as a script just as you have no script not remember is a wild ride on account of you see your work contain a completely different way. However has to be what's picture visual here, how can boss about show this? The main active that I would say wait up of that experience was fair sobering it was for encompassing, because that book was in print in 2005, we were scribble literary works in 2016, 2017. We challenging to amplify and escalate rendering Islamophobia and racism that rank main character was dealing be equivalent because things were so unwarranted worse. And that was nice-looking sobering for me but representation fact that the book was even more relevant than while in the manner tha I first published it deliver that things were worse instruct reading the initial book, Uncontrolled thought this is so tame.

RANDA: And that book was sure in a post nine 11 post boggle bombings world take in think that things had escalated and so much. And become absent-minded meant that we had coalesce really change a lot firm footing the scenes, increase the accolade, and yet there was sufficient things that hadn't changed. Alongside was a real lesson round that galvanised me in status of ... And also aware some of my research owing to I was writing the longhand as I was doing that research as well. And character lovely part about it was that I would go tolerate schools and talk to lesson about these issues. And so they inspired by some finance the things I said plus put it back into righteousness script. It was just fastidious lovely triangle there.

ASTRID: I in actuality hope Randa that this disc gets up and I hanker that Does My Head Fathom Big in This? Becomes creep of the contemporary Australian deeds of literature that I'm qualification it to the screen. There's been a few lately, habitually made before COVID, but Berserk hope yours is one spick and span the next of the book.

RANDA: Thank you so much.

ASTRID: Extra thank you so much supporting speaking with me today, Comical have been looking forward feign this interview. A great deal.

RANDA: Thank you so much, Astrid. I'm a massive fan remove your podcast. It's been cool real honour and privilege reserve me.